Tuesday, November 10, 2015

THOR'S DAY'S NOV 5 TALKBACK

From:  Ida Jane Gallagher
Subject:  Re: The HISTORY the ENGLISH SUPPRESSED
Date: August 30, 2015 7:55:39 AM PDT
 Thank you Myron for this huge effort. I am trying to print out all of these E-mails to keep a record of your work.
Ida Jane
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From: FREDA Hardison
Subject: Re: RELEVANT INTERESTS?
Date: November 2, 2015 5:43:37 PM PST
You go Myron, honestly - its hard enough without the very people who should be supporting and exploring this to be so blind

From: Myron Paine
To: Eric Hinrichs  
Sent: Monday, November 2, 2015 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: RELEVANT INTERESTS?
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On Oct 29, 2015, at 2:49 PM, Eric Hinrichs wrote:
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 At the very most, according to Dr. Anne Stine, the Greenlanders/Lenape constituted only 40,000 North Americans by 1550, which pales in significant to the estimated 10 to 20 million Native Americans at the time, and hence, only had a marginal effect on the culture of some isolated Native American tribes
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ERIC,
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You and Anne  use minimum data and large faulty logic to imply the LENAPE were not a significant Scandinavian factor in colonial America. 
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So you are trying to tell me the LENAPE were a minor part of Scandinavian history in America.   
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Assume that 15 million represents the "native Americans" in 1550.
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A large portion of those American people would have been speaking "Algonquin."  Say, 8 million people had LENAPE heritage.  But "The Algonquin Indian Language is Old Norse," because it was spoken by LENAPE, who were Scandinavian and who wrote the LENAPE history.
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You perceive that a "marginal effect on the culture" is because YOU have NOT accepted the evidence that the LENAPE were Scandinavians speaking Old Norse and that they wrote America's oldest history."  
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YOU apparently believe yoUR knowledge of language is superior to Reilder T. Sherwin, a man that grew up speaking a dialect of Old Norse and who spent over twenty five years comparing 30,000 LENAPE words to Old Norse.
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  I say to you that before you are a credible authority, you have to prove Reider T. Sherwin wrong by showing me a documented analysis that 15,500 LENAPE words are not correctly explained by Old Norse phrases.
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Myron 
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From:     Eric Hinrichs
Subject:    Re: RELEVANT INTERESTS?
Date:    November 3, 2015 7:35:15 PM PST
To: MYRON, FREDA Hardison
Cc: Karen Butery, WILLIAM Smith, STEVEN HILGREN, Ralph Rowlett , David Peterson
Folks,
While the symposium was personally very interesting to me, it was very apparent to me that American Indians, academic experts, and Scandinavian organizations had an appalling lack of interest in the past history of the integration of the races.  Current events, like the invasion of Scandinavian countries by the Muslims, are of far greater interest and relevance based on the feedback I got from symposium participants.  What we did learn from the Norse/Lenape history in the months of interactions leading up to the event, is that the hordes of invaders of a culture, who have superior weaponry and funding, can eradicate any society when they constitute a significant critical mass.  Consider that the Bolsheviks numbering only 750 fanatical ideologues conquered Russia, consisting of more than 115 million citizens in 1917.

As Margaret Mead succinctly stated:
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”
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The survivors are those who have the ability to adapt to the new reality.  Christianity is the only factor which has ameliorated the extreme savagery of the warring groups, whether they be Vikings or ISIS today!  We will address these themes in the future, which are more relevant to our interests.
Eric
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From: Myron Paine
To: Freda Cruse Hardison
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2015 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: RELEVANT INTERESTS?
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On Oct 29, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Freda Cruse Hardison wrote:
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No need to 'defend' my talk or me.  People are typically only interested in specific history such as Scandinavians only want their history of having discovered "America" re-enforcing their own identification as "Scandinavian" explorers rather than what happened after they landed and continued to happen for a 1000 years - the need to hide history in order to survive.  We did survive and we're here to prove it.
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Myron had written to:
FREDA,
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I can only praise your talk.  I thought it was the right thing to say at the right time.
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I was more interested to test the "RELEVANT INTERESTS."  Although St. Louis is in the center of the United States. and although the facilities are among the best I have seen, the LENAPE History requires a Scandinavian group interested in helping the original Scandinavians recover their past.
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In my judgment the St. Louis crowd fails to meet that criteria.  They seem to be more interested in playing "FANTASY VIKING" than in understanding the nitty gritty of Scandinavians living in America for ten centuries.
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The LENAPE/SCANDINAVIAN gathering may not yet be ended, but we would be wise to look for a better place as soon as possible.  
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A better place would be one where LENAPE can gather without a problem and where there are Scandinavians willing to do the coordination needed to make the gathering happen.
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A gathering in New Jersey or Philadelphia might be a good choice, but the number of Scandinavians there is unknown.  
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Minnesota might be another spot, but there seems to be a communications gap between the descendants of the LENAPE and the Scandinavians.
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Maybe the Ozarks or Oklahoma would be a better place.
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We should think about the next gathering spot so the planning has a running start.
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Myron
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From: FREDA Hardison,
Subject: Re: RELEVANT INTERESTS?
Date: November 4, 2015 7:27:09 AM PST
To: Eric Hinrichs,MYRON,
Cc: Karen Butery, WILLIAM Smith, STEVEN HILGREN,
       Ralph Rowlett, David Peterson
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I took time out of my hectic schedule to speak at the symposium due to my extreme respect for Dr. Myron Paine and our continued efforts to explore the roots of American History and what has been omitted in order NOT to perpetuate continued ignorance and repetition of those mistakes.   
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I personally met a lot of people who had heard of me and have thus 'linked' themselves and their organizations to me and the work I do as a direct result of having been at the symposium. Not only am I considered an expert in Native American Integration and pre Civil War history of the Ozarks, but I have now found myself in the midst of the controversy of the Bob Ford and Jesse James tin type debate.  But these are far less important to me than saving the indigenous peoples of the world and their habitats. 
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Please remove me from any further Mass emails and from these discussions as I do not have time to sort through those that are relevant beyond just words.   
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I could go on.   I knew Miss Margaret Mead personally.  I'll say no more as to what I think she would think of your errant use quoting her. 
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From: Ida Jane Gallagher ,
Subject: Fwd: [neara_members] After the Glacier; First Peopling of the Northeast
Date: November 4, 2015 1:08:31 PM PST
To: MYRON
This conference should interest you!
Ida Jane
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From: "crystal trickle"
To: "Ida Jane Gallagher",
Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 6:38:32 AM
Subject: FW: [neara_members] After the Glacier; First Peopling of the Northeast
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From: 'Terry J. Deveau'
To: neara_members
Subject: [neara_members] After the Glacier; First Peopling of the Northeast
Sent: Tue, Nov 3, 2015 3:21:49 PM

Passing this along from Mary Stowe, our Vermont Coordinator ...

Anyone interested in this event at the Institute of American Indian Studies in Connecticut?  Last year’s was packed and very informative. Mary 
10th Annual Native American-Archaeology Roundtable “After the Glacier; First Peopling of the Northeast”

9:00am - 5:00pm Sat Nov 21stSave or Share
Please join us for another rousing Native American-Archaeology Roundtable with outstanding presentations and panel discussions by New England professional archaeologists and Native American leadership. This year’s Roundtable will explore the most recent discoveries of early human settlement in the Northeast. Who were these people? When did they arrive, and from where? What was life like after the Wisconsin glaciations receded and the land became habitable? Native American scholars and archaeological specialists in Paleo-Indian and Early Archaic studies from New York and New England will be discussing these topics and more!
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COMMENT FROM MYRON:
SOMEBODY SHOULD MEET WITH THESE PEOPLE!
__________________________________________________________
From:        JudyMJohnson
                   Subject:      Re: Urgent-time sensitive interview on Lenape travels
Date:      November 5, 2015 12:42:03 PM PST
To:             MYRON
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Dear Myron,
I have been trying to phone you, but I keep getting an "All lines are busy, please try again later."
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Hutton Pulitzer wants to quote you in an interview for the LA Times and maybe the Wall St. Journal too.
Please phone him  ASAP at 904-438-4---
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It's about the people who may have stopped at Oak Island Nova Scotia in ancient travels,
and you know a lot about that.
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Hutton may well be of some help on your projects. He's well connected and a terrific promoter.
He is on the History Channel Show- The Curse of Oak Island and another show too,
as well as his own radio show, where he is showing one-per-week interviews with our speakers at AAPS conference this year.
THANKS, Judy
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From: Robert Klein
Subject:     Re: THOR'S DAY'S THOUGHTS OCT 29-FREDA, the SHAWNEE
Date:     November 5, 2015 3:02:20 PM PST
To: MYRON
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Read original reports regarding kingdom of sageounay.  it was 1535, around two generations after viking migration to James Bay and it conforms perfectly.  They had left that settlement before 1670 and Henry Hudson but it had to be substantial for it to be styled as a kingdom. What becomes clear is that they settled there for along time to explore and determine their next move and this led to traffic between populations to the south including Montreal..
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bob
I write a daily column, principally about the ongoing scientific debate over Global Warming and Terraforming the Earth that can be followed at: http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com or by googling arclein
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From: Bart Lee,
Subject:      Re: Thor's Day's Nov. 5 Thoughts: SCANDINAVIAN = INDIGENOUS.
Date: November 5, 2015 4:24:43 PM PST
To: MYRON KARL Hoenke,
Cc:  Christoffer Lee,
Hi Myron,
.
It's nice to see that old map I found for you being so useful!
 Can you document that "Kilistnao" translates to Christian?
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You are right that the English renamed the Christinaux tribe(?) the "Cree" but also the "Kris" which in French would be pronounced "KREE."  But "Kris" relates more distinctly to "Christian." See the footnote in the attached text (#4) out of the 19th Century boundary disputes about Canada proper and the Hudson Bay Company. The discussion of the Commissioners is consistent with our map and indeed that may have been referring to a copy of it.
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I think it would be productive to transcribe every place name (and subscript) on the map north of the great lakes, and see what falls out…  more Old Norse?
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Best wishes,
 Bart Lee  (aka "Bartholomew" in the blog)
_________________________________________________
From: Don Greene
Subject: FW: Here is my speculation
Date: November 7, 2015 6:50:00 AM PST
To: MYRON,
.
From: Mountainlion
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 11:48 AM

To:shawneeprof
Subject: Re: Here is my speculation
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You know Verrazano's map showed two towns with Scandinavian names either on the Georgia coast or the northeastern end of the Florida Atlantic Coast.
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VERRAZANO'S MAP 
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Greene,
To: 'Mountainlion
Sent: Fri, Nov 6, 2015 10:15 am

Subject: RE: Here is my speculation
Bezon my brother
Even if all of your honor is in my perception I feel you still deserve it.
I suspect that you as close as anyone could be without extensive research.
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Both the Pekowi and Thawikila were historically noted as generally much lighter in complexion and with frequent light colored eyes as compared to those with origins more toward the west which could/should mean something.
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 If I recall the Uchee said they were met upon arriving by native (that somehow in later renditions became Lenape) at the mouth of the Savannah.
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Since I am certain that both sides of the Savannah were home to Algonquian people that later came to regarded as branches of the Shawano (and later Shawnee) I feel there is indeed something there worth digging into
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The Thawikila seem to originate in Alabama or thereabouts and slowly migrate northward to the Ohio Valley but also cross the lower Appalachians to show up in Georgia and the Carolinas.
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The Thawikila and Pekowi were both noted origins for conjurers, shaman, spiritual leaders, civil chiefs and medicine men over the years.
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 I have found a lot of evidence that some of their oldest family lines were literally designated to be eliminated by both the British and their Indian lackeys.
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What might these families have known or possessed that made their demise so important that literal hit squads would be sent after them? This went on for several generations until their bloodlines were quite nearly exterminated. It just makes me go “Hm?”
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My thoughts also keep returning to the natives described by Verrazano long before any post-Columbians had set foot here along the coast from Florida to Newfoundland of natives he saw from his ship and even had contact with in small numbers (the sailors sadly would attempt to abduct nearly every female they could lay hands on) that resembled Africans, Asians and Europeans.
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  What became of those people; describes as nappy haired, nearly back skinned or blonde haired and blue eyed or even the ones he considered to be Mongols?
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Was he seeing the descendants of ancient travelers to this continent that may have continued oral traditions of their ancestors arriving by boat or ship from the east?
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Lots of fun my brother and I will keep you informed of what all goes on up here and do my best to at least keep the rear of your horse in sight. Grins
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Paselo
Don Spirit Wolf
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From: Mountainlion
[
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2015 5:50 PM

To: shawneeprofm
Subject: Here is my speculation
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Well, I can't think of a single honor that I have won in recent years but thank you anyway oh esteemed High Chief. 

I think that the Pekowi are Uchee, since they share the same migration legend.   I think that the Thawikila were Ciboney from Cuba, who were pushed out by the Taino.    In each case the newcomers banded with local Shawnee to form a hybrid tribe.

What do you think?
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Greene 

To: 'Mountainlion'
Sent: Wed, Nov 4, 2015 11:34 am
Subject:
RE: Arawaks
Bezon my honored brother
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Two of the Historic Shawnee groups,
 the Thawikila (various spellings but this is the one I use)and the Pekowi (likewise numerous spellings) have traditions of coming across some part of the ocean and landing on the southeast coast.
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The Pekowi seem to refer to coming in from the east on the ocean
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But the Thawikila sounds more like a crossing of some part of the Gulf of Mexico for it sounded like a short voyage that may have been done on rafts
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The Pekowi were noted early on for the frequency of gray eyed people in their midst and my feeling is that their name likely originally meant something like “gray eyed people” and not “men of ash” that is later applied to them
They seem to be first found on the Savannah but later shifted into Alabama
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 The Thawikila continued traditions of living along the “great salt water” well into the 1700’s and even Black Hoof that died in the early 1800’s recalled living along the “great salt water”.
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The Thawikila were noted early on for wearing their hair in elaborate arrangements with pins and such in it.
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Both were recalled in the southeast as conjurers and shaman
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But they were closely linked with several other Algonquian groups of the southeast that sound or seem to be more like the Shawnee of the Ohio valley in succeeding decades
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The other three of the Historic Shawnee groups have more recollections of ice and snow than these two who never mention any cold weather, snow or ice in their tribal stories until they are in north America or what is the U.S.
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Both of these are connected closely with the Shawano (meaning to the Historic Shawnee all the Algonquian people east of the Appalachians before 1700)
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I am going to forward you a copy of a stone found up here and a translation that has been done of the markings for your consideration
Paselo
Don Spirit Wolf
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From: Mountainlion
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 11:25 AM

To: Shawneeprof
Subject: Re: Arawaks
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By the way,  those 15 feet diameter stone piles are the scale of many Apalache stone mounds.  The intact cairns down here are all shaped like a drum. 

Well . . .  Charles de Rochefort wrote in 1658 that the Caribs were FROM the Southeast and were responsible for the construction of the shell rings.  He said that they migrated southward until they reached South America and then began migrating northward again.  

The fact is that the oldest shell rings are on the Georgia coast and are associated with the oldest pottery in North America.  

My friend,  Professor Gene Waddell of South Carolina recently published a book on the Caribbean cultures.  He is now researching the indigenous peoples of Tierra del Fuego. 

Good to hear from you.

Richard Panther Walking in a Soggy Georgia Mountain Forest on Colorful Leaves
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-----Original Message-----

From: Don Greene  

To: Richard Walking Panther Mountain Forest Thornton  
Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2015 11:08 am

Subject: re: Arawaks
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Bezon dear brother
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Do you know if anyone has ever looked into artifacts, constructions etc. in the Caribbean that are FROM our people?
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 I am certain that just as Caribbean people came to the continent,
That some of our people must have journeyed there as well
 Paselo
Don Spirit Wolf


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